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'Meet the Press' transcript for April 20, 2008
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 Netcast April 20: Two days before the Pa. presidential primary, we hosted an exclusive debate: Obama's Chief Strategist David Axelrod squared off against Clinton's new chief strategist Geoff Garin. Then, we had a political roundtable with David Brooks of the New York Times, E.J. Dionne of the Washington Post & Michele Norris of NPR. |
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MR. RUSSERT: Let me turn to, let me turn to foreign policy.
MR. GARIN: Sure.
MR. RUSSERT: This was in the debate last week in Philadelphia, and Senator Clinton was talking about an umbrella of deterrence. Senator Obama and Senator Clinton were asked if Iran attacked Israel. Let’s see if we can hear Senator Clinton’s—all right, here’s what she said: “I think we should be looking to create an umbrella of deterrence that goes much further than just Israel. Of course, I would make it clear to the Iranians that an attack on Israel would incur massive retaliation from the United States. But I would do the same with other countries in the region.” To my ear, that’s suggesting that if Iran invaded or attacked Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt, Senator Clinton would use U.S. troops and U.S. military power against Iran.
MR. GARIN: I, I think she would take the appropriate steps against Iran. But, at the moment, I, I, I believe that Senator Clinton believes and many other experts, that Iran is the greatest threat to the stability of the Middle East.
MR. RUSSERT: But when she says we would do the same with other countries, is she saying that the United States would rush to the defense of Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan? Which countries is she talking about?
MR. GARIN: Tim, I, I, I want to be totally honest here. I, I am helping Senator Clinton with her message, I am not her policy adviser, but I, I think what is—what she is saying is that Iran is a threat. Iran has to know that we take it seriously as a threat, and we’re not going to sit by idly if—as it, as it, as it gains nuclear strength and power, in part because of the failures of this administration. We’re not going to sit idly by and let them attack other countries militarily.
MR. RUSSERT: David Axelrod, Senator Clinton said yesterday that, “You know he always says in his speeches he’s running a positive campaign, but his campaign does just the opposite.” And Senator Clinton’s talking about the negative ad about her health care plan and this flier about her trade position, “Hillary Clinton supported NAFTA, permanent China trade, lost thousands of jobs. Hillary Clinton was praising NAFTA. See for yourself.” It’s a negative piece on Hillary Clinton.
MR. AXELROD: Well, look, you know, Geoff said before that in the debate Senator Clinton spoke her mind, but the problem is she speaks her minds. She usually has two positions on these issues. On NAFTA, for 12 years she was a strong supporter, and the fact is that when her schedules came out from the White House after months of delay, what they showed was she was in organizing meetings for NAFTA, exhorting people to support it. She never spoke out. She said she spoke out against NAFTA. In fact, she didn’t. You can—look, there are—there’s an honest debate to be had about NAFTA. But again, let’s be straight forward about what your position was. And so the complaint really is that you can’t be for NAFTA for 12 years, and then go into Pennsylvania or go into Ohio and say, “Oh, I was always against it.” I mean, this is part of the credibility problem that Senator Clinton has, and it’s very much what makes people cynical about Washington, cynical about politics.
MR. RUSSERT: But if your campaign can criticize her position on trade, why can’t she criticize your position on health care?
Mr. AXELROD: She can, and she has, and she’s availed herself to the opportunity again and again. But we should have a straight up conversation.
MR. RUSSERT: Are they both negative campaigns?
MR. AXELROD: We should have, we should have a straight up conversation about what these positions truly are, not a distorted conversation based on changes of position or, or misinterpretation of things that were said.
MR. GARIN: Tim, I—David’s description of Senator Clinton and NAFTA is simply and wholly inaccurate. During the 1992 campaign, she was opposed to NAFTA. Everybody in that campaign who were at those meetings and knows that she was opposed to NAFTA. She read—she actually read the treaty. She knew exactly why it was a bad treaty. But for, for—David refers to the schedule, she was a member of President Clinton’s administration. Under those circumstances, you support the president. And when Hillary Clinton is president, everybody will be expected to do that as well. But...
MR. RUSSERT: She did say it’s been good for America.
MR. GARIN: She—what she has said about NAFTA is that it needs to be changed, that, that, that it’s time for a time out on, on trade to rethink this. When, when we had that debate, Senator Obama’s representative, representative went to Canada and said, “Well, not really.” And Senator Obama has not been consistent on this issue of, of NAFTA as well. So again—but the idea that she has 12 years of being for—it’s just a lie.
MR. AXELROD: All her public statements, Geoff...
MR. GARIN: It’s simply—it’s simply not true. It’s simply not true.
MR. AXELROD: All her public statements reflect that.
MR. GARIN: And certainly not true to the extent that she—when, when she has been an independent agent, it—when she had an opportunity to advise Bill Clinton during the campaign and early administration on this, she was opposed to NAFTA. As a senator, she’s talked about the need for time out for trade. She’s talked about the flaws of, of these agreements. And so, you know, I...
MR. AXELROD: Geoff, what, what she said was, “I spoke out against NAFTA.” Can you show one place on the public record where, over—before this year, before this campaign, that she actually spoke out against it?
MR. GARIN: Well...
MR. AXELROD: There, there—I, I—we, we have not found one.
MR. GARIN: She spoke out against it strongly in...
MR. AXELROD: Privately?
MR. GARIN: ...in the counsels of when, when it, when it...
MR. AXELROD: The other thing, the other thing is...
MR. GARIN: Senator Obama...
MR. AXELROD: A more current example...
MR. GARIN: Senator Obama’s view on trade...
MR. AXELROD: ...your predecessor...
MR. GARIN: ...has been a little...
MR. AXELROD: It has not.
MR. GARIN: Yes, it has, David.
MR. AXELROD: Your predecessor, Mark Penn, is not here tonight because he angled on down to the Columbian Embassy at the time that Senator Clinton said that she was opposed to that treaty to plot strategy with him about how to pass that treaty. Her chief strategist. Doesn’t that cause some concern for people? I think it does.
MR. GARIN: Well, A, as you note, he’s not here today. And second, is that the, the co-chair of your campaign writes editorials in favor of the Columbia free trade agreement.
MR. AXELROD: He doesn’t...
MR. GARIN: Nobody would say that Barack Obama is going to take a position different from the one he believes in because the co-chair of his campaign feels that way. Nobody says that Tom Daschle shouldn’t be the co-chair any longer or, or shouldn’t ever be allowed to...
MR. AXELROD: So why did Penn leave? If there’s nothing wrong with it, why did Penn leave?
MR. GARIN: ..serve in—shouldn’t, shouldn’t be in administration.
MR. AXELROD: Why did she ask him to leave, then?
MR. GARIN: Well, I, I, I think that he made an error in judgment.
MR. AXELROD: Well, what was the error, if there’s no problem with it?
MR. GARIN: The, the error was that he ought to be very focused on, on Senator Clinton’s business but—right now. But look, we don’t make a—an issue about Senator Daschle, the co-chair of your campaign, advocating this treaty because we, we believe that Senator Obama has the integrity to do what he thinks is right. It would be nice if you felt the same way about Senator Clinton. I recognize you don’t.
MR. AXELROD: Well...
MR. GARIN: I—and look, I, David, I...
MR. AXELROD: I’m not questioning her integrity. I’m questioning, I’m questioning her forthrightness on this particular issue because she has a long record of doing, of saying one thing and doing another. And that, I think, is a concern.
MR. GARIN: It, well, it’s—it would be a concern if it were true.
MR. RUSSERT: Let me ask about two final issues. David Axelrod, based on the last couple of weeks, many Democrats fear Republicans in the fall will string together an ad which shows Michelle Obama saying that she really never had pride in America until this campaign when Barack Obama was running, Barack Obama with his hands clasped in front of him rather than holding his heart during the pledge of allegiance, Barack Obama not wearing a flag pin, Barack Obama talking about clinging to faith and to guns, suggesting—Barack Obama meeting with Bill Ayers, a former Weather ground under—Weatherman underground figure. Are you concerned that all those kinds of issues could be strung together to create an impression of Obama that would make him almost unelectable to a lot of swing voters?
MR. AXELROD: No. First of all, understand that what—whoever the Republic—the Democratic nominee would be, the Republican Party is going to string things together to try and destroy the Democratic candidate because they have an untenable position. They have to defend the record of the last eight years, and that’s an indefensible record. So of course they’re going to attack. But when people—as people get to know Senator Obama during this campaign, what they learn is, here’s a guy who was raised by his grandparents from Kansas, his grandfather served in Patton’s Army, his grandmother was a Rosie the Riveter on the bomber assembly line. He has said many, many times, only in America could his story be, be true. I don’t know anybody who’s more patriotic and who loves this country more than Barack Obama. And that’s the person people are going to get to see when he’s the Democratic nominee and campaigns across this country. We’re not—we’re going to fight all those caricatures off, as Senator Clinton will have to deal with—would have to deal with many, many things were she the nominee. But ultimately, this is going to be an election about who can lead us into the future. Do we want to continue eight more years of the Bush policies, which is what John McCain promises? Or are we going to bring real change to this country? I think people are going to choose change.
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