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Video: Put an end to destructive sibling rivalry

  1. Transcript of: Put an end to destructive sibling rivalry

    HODA KOTB, co-host: If you've ever been shocked at your sister's behavior or you haven't talked to your brother in years, you have come to the right place.

    KATHIE LEE GIFFORD, co-host: The relationship between grown siblings is among the most complex and least

    understood, which is why Jane Isay wrote "Mom Still Likes You Best: The Unfinished Business Between Siblings." Jeff Gardere is also here with help. He is a clinical psychologist with us very often.

    Dr. JEFF GARDERE: Yes. Thank you.

    GIFFORD: And we're so happy to see all of you.

    KOTB: We're glad to see all -- both of you.

    Dr. GARDERE: Thank you.

    Ms. JANE ISAY (Author, "Mom Still Likes You Best"): Delighted to be here.

    GIFFORD: So if it weren't for mothers, there would be no brothers and sisters .

    Ms. ISAY: This is correct.

    GIFFORD: So in honor of Mother's Day , we're going to talk about the problematic -- you love your brother and sister like I do.

    KOTB: Well, I think what's interesting sometimes is when you're closer in age...

    Ms. ISAY: Yes.

    KOTB: ...it seems like, and you're of the same sex, I think that the rivalry may be stronger. I'm three years away from my sister...

    Dr. GARDERE: Yeah.

    KOTB: ...so we are kind of going through different things.

    Ms. ISAY: Right.

    KOTB: Is that gap really critical ?

    Ms. ISAY: I think the gap makes a big difference because when you're older you have your own world when the -- when the intruder appears.

    KOTB: Right.

    Dr. GARDERE: The intruder, yes.

    Ms. ISAY: And so you -- but all -- it's often the case that sisters form the closest relationships in the world...

    KOTB: Mm-hmm.

    Ms. ISAY: ...or the most difficult.

    GIFFORD: Oh. Why is that?

    KOTB: Yeah.

    Ms. ISAY: Well, because the competition for space in the home -- you know, parents say, `Oh, I have enough love for all of you.'

    KOTB: Mm-hmm.

    Ms. ISAY: Well, they don't have enough time...

    KOTB: Right.

    Dr. GARDERE: Right.

    Ms. ISAY: ...and they don't have enough attention, and sometimes they don't have enough goods.

    KOTB: Well, sometimes it takes time for the relationship to actually evolve. Some people aren't close when they're younger...

    Ms. ISAY: That's right .

    KOTB: ...but they get closer when they're older.

    GIFFORD: Or the opposite.

    KOTB: Right. Why is that?

    Dr. GARDERE: As they grow older, and I think it's almost like killing two birds with one stone, not only are they getting closer but they're learning how to regulate moods and regulate relationships.

    Ms. ISAY: Yes.

    Dr. GARDERE: These are the closest relationships other than perhaps marriage , right, and so this...

    Ms. ISAY: But they're longer than marriage .

    KOTB: In the long run they're longer.

    Dr. GARDERE: And they're longer than marriage , they're forever , and you learn your social skills there. How you learn to deal with a sibling will teach you how to deal with other people in your life.

    GIFFORD: Well, you talk about reframing your childhood.

    Ms. ISAY: Yes.

    GIFFORD: What do you mean by that?

    Ms. ISAY: What I mean is that when we're all children -- by the way, I agree with you completely.

    KOTB: Mm-hmm.

    Ms. ISAY: It's where we learn our social skills .

    KOTB: Right.

    Ms. ISAY: But when we're in the nursery and there's nobody around, children behave like children .

    KOTB: Right.

    Ms. ISAY: We fight, we bite, we...

    Dr. GARDERE: Yell and scream.

    Ms. ISAY: Yell and scream.

    Dr. GARDERE: Right.

    KOTB: Yeah.

    Ms. ISAY: And sometimes people remember those stories as the framing stories.

    KOTB: Mm-hmm.

    Ms. ISAY: I call them Just So Stories .

    GIFFORD: Instead of the lemonade stand you used to do every summer or the...

    Ms. ISAY: Right.

    KOTB: Right.

    Dr. GARDERE: Exactly.

    Ms. ISAY: So -- and as we go -- as I -- as I interviewed 90 people across the country , those Just So Stories were really about explaining how they feel today.

    KOTB: Mm-hmm.

    Ms. ISAY: So if your Just So Story is, as is in my book, `My sister chased me around the kitchen with a knife'...

    GIFFORD: Yeah.

    KOTB: Yeah.

    GIFFORD: There are some incredible stories in this book.

    Ms. ISAY: Right. You need as -- if you want to be close to her, you need to figure out what was going on in her life, in her mind when this happened because children have no idea what's going on outside their experience.

    KOTB: Sometimes I think when we get back together as families, whether it's at Thanksgiving or whatever, it's so funny how you go right back into those old roles even though it's been such a long time since you...

    GIFFORD: You're about to spend the weekend with your family .

    KOTB: Right. And we spend a lot of time so we don't have it so much because we see each other so frequently.

    Ms. ISAY: Yeah.

    Dr. GARDERE: Yeah.

    KOTB: But isn't it weird how you go back to the -- you become the child again.

    Dr. GARDERE: Be it ever so terrible, there's no place like home .

    KOTB: Yeah.

    Dr. GARDERE: And we almost become comfortable in some of those dysfunctional roles...

    Ms. ISAY: Yes.

    Dr. GARDERE: ...because it's what we know and it almost frames our lives. So when you talk about reframing this -- we don't have to be one-note sambas.

    Ms. ISAY: That's right .

    Dr. GARDERE: We don't have to be about `it was about my sister who came after me with a knife' but what happened at the time and what were some of the other -- what were the wonderful things that happened?

    Ms. ISAY: Wonderful things.

    KOTB: Well, if you're the forgetful sister, let's pretend, and you're not anymore but you were then...

    Ms. ISAY: Yeah.

    KOTB: ...and they still say, `Oh, you always forget everything.'

    Ms. ISAY: Oh.

    KOTB: And you're like, `No, no, I don't do that anymore. That was when I was in third grade.'

    GIFFORD: `I've grown -- I've matured.'

    Dr. GARDERE: Yes.

    KOTB: Yeah.

    Ms. ISAY: This is an extremely important point because kids get typed.

    KOTB: Yeah.

    Ms. ISAY: You're the pretty one, you're the smart one...

    KOTB: Yeah.

    Ms. ISAY: ...you're the forgetful one, you're the bad one.

    KOTB: Yeah.

    GIFFORD: Yeah.

    Ms. ISAY: And we grow up and we are no longer any of those things. And in order for adults to be close again, they have to shed those old roles.

    KOTB: Right. How?

    Ms. ISAY: And they have to help each other. Well, if you were the smart one, you might with your sister, notice that she's extremely bright.

    KOTB: Yeah.

    Ms. ISAY: And be...

    Dr. GARDERE: And compliment her on that.

    Ms. ISAY: That's right , that's right.

    KOTB: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

    Dr. GARDERE: And in many ways, model the behaviors that you would like to see them express , and at the same time, you up your game, too...

    KOTB: Sure.

    Ms. ISAY: Yes.

    Dr. GARDERE: ...because you're taking it to the next level and reframing, if you will...

    Ms. ISAY: Exactly.

    Dr. GARDERE: ...the relationship that you had in the past and making it better for the future.

    Ms. ISAY: Making it better.

    Dr. GARDERE: Because at the end of the day , you only have to -- you only have your siblings as your real support , right?

    KOTB: It's true.

    GIFFORD: All right.

    Ms. ISAY: They're the people you've known longest in your whole life.

By
TODAY books
updated 5/4/2010 2:12:40 PM ET 2010-05-04T18:12:40

Jane Isay, in "Mom Still Likes You Best: The Unfinished Business Between Siblings," explores the sometimes heartbreaking but always meaningful bond between brothers and sisters. Based on scores of interviews, Isay explores a wide range of relationships between siblings, from the very close ones to those who are virtually estranged, and she takes up the role of parents in setting their children apart or together. An excerpt.

I watch my 3-and-a-half-year-old grandson dealing with his baby sister. He tells me he loves her and misses her when he stays over at my house. I think it's cute, but my son says it's a lie. One weekend, the whole family came with me to the shore, and every time Benji noticed one of the adults doing more than just feeding or changing the baby, he would make a beeline for her. "Ruby, I love you," he'd say, rushing to plant a kiss on her head. These airborne attacks of love scared me, because they were a little too energetic. He wanted to hold her hand or pat her all the time, especially when she was on my lap. Benji is an articulate and affectionate little boy, and I could see him working overtime to act like a big boy when he was around the baby. He loves his little sister, but he does not understand — and cannot really control — the strong feelings she evokes in him. The baby uttered her first laugh at Benji's antics, and she never lets him out of her sight. She's already attached to him. He will be her idol and model, and he will be good to her, I know. But his struggle to get used to the baby, his effort to deal with the unfairness he feels when her needs come first, his attempts both to control his anger and to understand the limits of his love reminded me of what we all experienced as kids. Watching them a year later, I see how his efforts to be a good older brother have created a bond of deep affection.

Recently I eavesdropped on a young family sitting next to me in a restaurant. The little boy had plunked himself down in the seat that was needed for his little sister's high chair. The father asked him to move to the banquette, to make room for the baby. The little boy was adamant. He refused to change seats. Folding his arms across his chest, this 5-year-old wore a look of pure rage. He didn't cry or scream, but the anger and determination turned his little mouth into a dark circle. He eventually relocated to the other side of the table, but his mood did not change until a kind waitress distracted him and he joined the family meal. Later, as they were leaving the restaurant, I saw the boy take his father's hand and say, "I guess I'll have to marry her." "No," his father replied, "you won't." "Why not?" "It's against the rules." This little boy was in the process of learning the rules.

That brunch, with all its conflicting emotions, represents one of countless moments in the lives of kids as they learn to live with the fact that they must make room for others. First children have no reason to doubt their centrality — until the new baby arrives. Second children — the interlopers — rarely get the sole attention of the parents, and they often are greeted with jealousy and hostility by the former titleholder. Subsequent siblings are born into more complicated social situations, and they soon learn to navigate a complex world of loyalties, coalitions, and betrayals.

Book jacket: "Mom Still Likes You Best"
As adults, we may remember bits and pieces of those early experiences, but we generally have forgotten the intensity of our feelings. That intensity is the hallmark of childhood, and watching our own kids or our grandchildren reminds us of the amazingly strong bonds forged in the nursery. When young siblings are unsupervised, the time they spend together gives them the opportunity to experience every imaginable emotion and to express their feelings unfettered by the adults in their lives. Might makes right, older kids hold the power, younger ones snitch and bite; they steal from each other, tease each other, make each other cry, grab each other's toys, pinch each other's arms, and sneak each other's food. In (almost) the words of the "Monk" theme song, "It's a jungle out there." By the same token, children give each other a degree of support and comfort they cannot find elsewhere. A child with a nightmare crawls into his brother's bed; a sister hugs her brother who has been wronged; little soldiers venture into the adult world to protect their siblings. A beloved blanket is found; a doll is mended; a tear is wiped away. Loyalty and loving acts also form the bedrock of nursery behavior.

Children are either/or people. They go from "I love you!" to "I hate you!" in an instant. Brothers and sisters evoke powerful feelings a hundred times a day, and they often switch tracks, finding each other alternately a burden and a gift. Having a sibling is both. We were scared by our siblings' actions, and sometimes we shocked ourselves by the force of our anger. We loved them with a power that is hard to recover, and sometimes we wanted to kill them. Learning how to balance positive and negative feelings is a major task of childhood, as is the ability to deal with our siblings' hurt feelings, rages, and cruelties — as well as our own. These early moments when we expressed love and hatred, laughter and loyalty all happened before we had a full understanding of the world, before our brains developed the ability to reason or use logic. This explains both the profundity of the connection and the selective amnesia that many people over 30 have about their childhood experiences. Many of these events happened too early for us to remember and were felt too powerfully for us to fully forget.

From the hundreds of stories I've heard over the last years, I've found that nursery behavior exhibits at least five of the Seven Deadly Sins: Gluttony (they stuff their own faces to keep others from getting the goodies), Greed (they want everything the others have, and will steal to get it), Wrath (oh, the explosions), Envy (including secret pleasure at a sibling's disappointments), and Pride (the joy of outdoing a brother or sister). These sins may be deadly to the church, but at home they aren't. We understand this behavior as ordinary and expectable childhood responses to conflict and competition. Parents have a responsibility to keep their children from harming one another. But their authority over feelings is limited. It is the brothers and sisters who teach one another the lifelong lessons of getting along — or not. Home is the first schoolroom for the education of the emotions. It is a relatively safe place in which to express and experience raw emotions — after all, it's home. This is the gift.

By the same token, five of the Seven Virtues emerge in these early years: when a small child shows her grandmother how she helps her little sister fall asleep, Love is present; a child's sense of Justice is honed when he and his brothers begin to recognize what is fair, even when they are fighting; Courage can be seen in the playground when a small boy defends his older sister from the class bully; Restraint arrives when a girl stops herself in the middle of pulling her sister's hair and wonders what she could have been thinking; Hope can be seen in the eyes of a sister, standing on the sidelines of the hockey field, cheering on her special needs brother.

We are all capable of this mix of vices and virtues, and we experiment on our siblings. Some nursery behavior on a play date would probably mean permanent social exile, but the farthest place to which a brother or sister can be exiled is the bedroom or what some families call the "naughty chair." It is no wonder that adults remain powerfully connected to — or distanced from — their siblings, even after the years have softened their memories.

When we are grown, old childhood feelings can sneak up on us and overtake us, and when we are together time has a funny way of telescoping. Memory flashes beyond our control emerge from a long-ago time when we were trying to make sense of our world with the limited understanding of children. They are pure emotion, unfettered by reason. Even when we're in our seventh and eighth decades, brothers and sisters can still push our buttons. This is the burden.

Discuss. Share. Connect Things can be going smoothly when, all of a sudden, something slams us back to childhood. "She was always judgmental," a woman will think of her elder sister after they have clashed about where to go for lunch. The tone more than the words raises the old antagonisms, powerful feelings that are thoroughly out of proportion to the dispute. Or a small detail can beam us back to the tender times of our childhood. Visiting my brother after many years, I caught sight of a tiny child's cardboard suitcase sitting atop a tall cabinet. My brother had carried it all through Europe when he was a small boy traveling with my mother, in the late 1930s. They pasted stickers of each country they visited on the suitcase, along with the icon for the Cunard Line. This battered relic of his childhood — I was born after they came home — brought me a rush of deep sympathy for this little boy, who is now over seventy.

I'm not suggesting that any of us regress to our childish states of being; that would be a disaster. But I have learned that in the process of growing up and dealing with those passions, we may misunderstand our brothers and sisters. We see them through the eyes of an adult, but we are experiencing them with the primitive feelings of a child. The inability to revise our childish responses keeps us in a bind. Some people may be able to reconnect with distant siblings by seeing their memories through grown-up eyes and reframing their past. But first, people may need to reconnect with their childhood experiences.

Excerpted from "Mom Still Likes You Best" by Jane Isay Copyright © 2010 by Jane Isay. Excerpted by permission of Doubleday, a division of Random House, Inc. All rights reserved. No part of this excerpt may be reproduced or reprinted without permission in writing from the publisher.

© 2012 MSNBC Interactive

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